Thoughts on spells of Solomon's Keep
I've been recently thinking about what Mr. Raptis said about the limited and unpredictable set of skills for each level and a question came to my mind: is this idea successfully implemented in Solomon's Keep? As I play more Solomon's Keep (mostly due to my iphone not letting me play boneyard until the patch comes), I have realized that it is implemented in a wrong way. I had no problem with early game but as you reach to late game, a player MUST to have some essential skills(battle mage, magic shield, siege mage, etc.) to make any progress. If these skills are not 100% necessary to beat the entire game, there would be absolutely no problem. However, because these skills are mandatory, the builds become very fixed and sometimes forces players to farm. Farming, in general, is not really a bad thing but if it is necessary to farm in a game, that is what makes the game un-fun.
Fortunately, there are various ways to deal with this problem:
1. Do some nerfs on enemies like make mages' bubble more fragile, remove homing from lighting mage, and make range attack and poison deal less damage. By nerfing some enemies, the essential skills importance will drop and open more doors to opportunity for other unique builds.
2. Less max skill level and more unique skills. One of the main reason why certain skills were never picked is that you need to reach max level of the essential skills like battle mage and siege mage. By lowering their max level (but increasing the power growth per level) and making new skills that has more unique characteristics, players can use spare skill points to skills that they normally wouldn't have gone and make the build more flexible. The best example of this would be perk system from Fallout.
3. Extended Welding. What I mean by this is that non-primary skills like battle mage, mana up can weld with other skills to make brand new skills that empowers player in a very unique way. For example, you can weld siege mage and mana up to make a skill that give bonus damage based on max mana. This will actually promote people to get out of the fixed build and make gameplay style of each run different.
4. Potions. To deal with the cruel world, players can use various dru... I mean potions to overcome the ridiculous obstacles. It is basically a temporary skill you have at the cost of money and some penalties (like 20% slow when expired).
What you guys think about the current state of Solomon's Keep? Is there other ways to make the unpredictable skill set system more fun? Or is it just fine as it is? Please leave your thoughts on the comment section and keep on raiding keep. ;)
P.S. What about the Boneyard? That's... ...a different story.
P.S.S. Mr. Raptis... if you are reading this. please don't think it as "re-balance the old Solomon now!!".
Comments
2. is that like unlocking a higher tier of that spell/buff on a skill tree?
3. i like this idea it's kinda like what SD had with the magic shield and then the enhancement skill that made it into an explsive shield.
4. hows about something like exotic potions, where you'd take your potion and place it on the anvil to enhance it for a price and they have a downside like you suggested.
Solomons Keep allows for good runs and bad runs-- the core gameplay is intended to be about adapting with what you've got.
This is why the shopkeeper and the teacher never change their supplies. The intended game pattern is:
1. Start game
2. Examine shopkeeper and teacher to see what is going to be available this game
3. Make a general plan and select primary skill based on that information.
For example, if the shopkeeper has decent rings of battle mage available... you never need to waste a skill point on it. If the teacher is selling Channel Mana or Magic Shield, your gameplay focus changes to collecting gold and getting just a single point in either of those skills.
So yes, skills will get some tweaking in HD (they have to, because there's new stuff that changes the whole situation), but in general, there will still be bad runs where you must play the game very differently than when you get a good run.
But that said, there will be dousing in keep, as well as other item powers and enhancements you can make, to shore up the bad runs. The idea is to prevent "robotic play."
unless you're referring to re-tuning the original SK, i dunno if SK need a difficulty adjustment if anything maybe a better reward for killing a floor boss and maybe add some random spawning mid-bosses. i dunno the difficulty i think is not that bad (imo).
All runs in Solomon's Keep leave the player able to beat the game. When the game first came out I played it A LOT!!! One of my favorite things to do was spice it up with random skills, (indeed, before John implemented this many times I would only pick the center of the choices to achieve this effect). In this way many times I wound up with a build that was woefully inadequate BUT I could always win if I was persistent. Leaving the battle through the door many times was often needed but I could win.
While your suggestions are not without merit they make the game something that it is not. They make it a kind of Diablo clone. I love Diablo and am not knocking it. But Solomon is not Diablo. The allure to John's skill system, to me and many others, is the random nature of it. Every game is a different experience.
Finally, Peppermaster, while there is no doubt of your good intentions, Solomon's Keep is John's work of art. It is something he does not only because he enjoys it, but because it is how he expresses himself to some level. When someone creates something, be it a video game, a painting, or a procedure for paperwork at an office, they do not want to hear that something is implemented wrongly when they created it in the first place. It comes off a bit as "I know you made this but you did it wrong. I know better then you as to what you want". It comes through in what you posted that no offense is intended, I just thought I would mention it.
I do know that John is appreciative of the time you and others have spent pondering ways to improve the game.
Darkest Wishes,
The Dork Lord.
With that having been said if you rewrite what he said into a very politically correct and beautiful sounding way he has a point but I also think that it's a misrepresented aspect perhaps of some of the roguelike quality of this game.
In classical roguelikes, which happens to be a genre that I despise, your game is extremely heavily dependent on finding gear and getting lucky with skill choices and encounters if those are a part of the game ETC. the games are meant for you to die frequently and get frustrated. not all roguelikes even have a progress system where each death leads to some benefit in the next life sometimes they don't you just die for no purpose and it's just as brutally hard the next time and only one out of every hundred runs will you get the good stuff and the right and encounters and choices to be able to have a great incredible run. People seem to love that even though I always found it endlessly frustrating.
Although I'm not in rapti's head, playing this game enough has made me feel like his goal was to incorporate elements of true RPG nature with somewhat of a roguelike thematic experience. So basically a hybrid of the two genres but more leaning towards RPG as the base.
That's why he seems determined to always make games that play in under an hour, games where maybe you will just have a bad run and there ain't nothing you can do about it, games where you won't find decent equipment, and then of course that one out of 100 runs where everything lines up perfectly and you have the exhilarating feeling of beating the game with just your greatness guts and Glory.
In some ways even magic cabinets and scavengers are sort of ways to help players avoid getting so frustrated they throw away the game and never pick it up again, but really for the hardcore players aren't meant to be used. In my head I feel like they were not elements that were initially supposed to be incorporated, as in if you don't find the incredible plus 2 ring of awesome then you just don't get it that run
the idea that you should play through a thousand runs to find that ring so you could put it in side the magic cabinet with your other one that you managed to find so that you can make finally a character who is geared up the wazoo so that you can get your magical run forced out of the game is somewhat against the games roguelike thematic element.
In that sense I think both of you are right because he did incorporate the magic cabinet which does give one a sense that perhaps I should work hard to build the ultimate play through as a goal of the game.
In a sense, whenever you try and create a hybrid of two different genres you wind up with goals that are sometimes wonky. I think that it's really important that pepper master and everyone continue to post here always.
Although it's sometimes abrasive or annoying as an artist to read the feedback I think raptisoft knows that we are really a dedicated fanbase and he and his games are greatly beloved to us,and therefore he can handle a little bit of annoyance and take it with a grain of salt.
in the end hearing from the players who have the experience, and seeing things from their various perspectives will help him formulate his new genre according to both his own desires and also be able to see it from the perspective of those who are playing it heavily.
I also see from his responses that he is a very strong-willed person who is not easily going to be swayed from his goals so I think that I'm not worried to post things thinking oh he'll be offended or thinking maybe is going to change because somebody demanded something. he isn't and he won't but obviously every thought gets processed and things can only improve as a result.
That's just my humble opinion
sorry about the formatting I'm doing this from my cell phone
Thank you for your replies. I am absolutely not saying John is above criticism. I am saying if a function or aspect within a piece of art is working as intended by the artist, in this case the skill system, it cannot be implemented wrongly. There may be, however, suggestions than can make it better.
I know Peppermaster's intention and that was never in question. I just though I would give some advice for outside of the forum but I am sure I did not make my point clear and so the fault lies with me.
I did read the whole thing as I do most everything posted on the forum. It is clear that Peppermaster puts a lot of thought into things and that is wonderful!
Darkest Wishes
The Dork Lord
This is the first thing I am offended by on this whole thread.
I read all data and make adjustments when I can. I want SKHD to be one of those classic games that people will be talking about in 20 years, so I make note of all user's concerns (I was around for Diablo 2's launch-- that game wasn't "balanced" for more than 7 years and SKHD will have similar things turn up because it's multiplayer, and I have no way to split myself into a myriad to find all the concerns).
As for Keep+Boneyard, they were designed for iPhone 1, which was the Atari 2600 of smartphones-- I feel no guilt for any shortcuts or limitations that got baked into them because there simply wasn't the memory, CPU, or graphical processing power. I would not even have re-released them at all if Apple didn't pull their "hey, we're destroying everything--again" stunt.
Though I hear you're not too fond of Android development either?
Apple would be okay too, if they didn't constantly invalidate everything you've done. I've joked, except it's not a joke, that it's impossible to become an expert at Apple's stuff-- every three years, any new person who never learned the older stuff has a huge advantage over you because they don't have to unlearn everything.